Dialog bennidikete andesen my basic theory is Marx s views

"Editor's note" He referenced in his speech in the United States

According to CNN news, United States scholar, world renowned political scientist, South-East Asia region research bennidikete·andesen died on December 12 in the eastern city of Malang, Indonesia, at the age of 79. Anderson was born on August 26, 1936 in Kunming, China, former Cornell University Professor Emeritus, and representative works of the imagined community.

High Institute of Humanities and social sciences, Tsinghua University, at the invitation of Professor Anderson visited Beijing on March 17, 2014 for half a month. On April 2, 2014, Beijing Foreign Studies University, Yan Wang, an associate professor of the Institute of foreign literature has had a conversation with Anderson in Beijing, original 2015 for the first period of the reading, by Wang Yan outpourings news reprinted, abridged.

Bennidikete·andesen

(A)

Yan Wang: Professor Anderson, before you arrived, Chinese scholars are very familiar with your work, especially of the imagined community, upon translation to the Chinese mainland, immediately created a response ... I noticed that the book the phantom (The Spectre of Comparisons) of such a statement: once the anti-colonial nationalism (the anti-colonial nationalism) and the national "marriage", will be transformed into a potential risk. But in fact the anti-colonial nationalism inevitably result to create national. How would you explain the relationship between the two?

Anderson: do you speak of nationalism in the Western thinking?

Yan Wang: I think it refers to the third world anti-colonial nationalism. 1950 Egypt President Gamal Abdel Nasser advocated pan-Arabism, setting off a mass of anti-colonial nationalist movements, establishment of the United Arab Republic, Syria, and Iraq, and Jordan responded positively and forcefully of Western colonialism, Arab nationalist consciousness at an all-time high. But the paradox is that this national movement and later to the Soviet bloc. Soviet support for the Arab countries, United States support for Israel. War in the Middle East, nationalism became the two superpowers game weapon, apparently with Nasser runs counter to the original intention. Therefore, in the third world cannot imagine nationalism and secession, the State is the umbrella of nationalism, but once the marriage, nationalism was marginalized and replaced by the will of the State.

Anderson: I think before 1920, most of the country was still ruled by the Empires, monarchies in the Middle East, such as the Persian Empire, had not been colonized. Internal Arab divisions, it seems difficult to set up a unified empire.

From the mid 20 to mid-40, United Kingdom wants to keep monarchy in the Middle East, because it is very good at dealing with the Arab kings, chiefs, and other colonial experience is different. Nasser refused to accept such a pattern, to military power in the Middle East and world traditions, dating back to Ottoman times.

I mentioned the "marriage" was, in fact, is a metaphor. Likened the country to a Grand Palace, old masters leave, all the lights turned off. New people entered the Palace, and then turn on the lights, the State became a property can change hands. Do you think revolution victory, Lenin moved into the Grand Kremlin Palace in Moscow, led the revolutionary Government in the Palace. After the victory of the revolution, the Government could have a lot of locations, but it also moved into the Palace, like the lamp unscrew the Manchu left. Radical leader of the revolution, why bother with royalty sharing a bedroom? This is the "marriage" where the meaning, I don't believe Chiang than in the Daqing Emperor, well done.

European history books talk about nationalism, and think that they formed from top to bottom, so say the French nation formed in the 12th century AD, this is not true. Peoples often originate from unknown, but historians don't like that kind of history. Needless to say, precisely because the emergence of printing and mass literacy, people gradually develop a sense of belonging and to promote ethnic consciousness gradually from the bottom up, and hit the top of the power. Thus, nationalism in the embryonic stage, with national confrontation, all the South American nationalism, exclusion when countries. But when he got the chance, the nationalist Association and the National Alliance. Lots of nationalist writings all unconsciously adopt the European model.

Yan Wang: it seems that any national movement, as long as the dominant force, inevitable institutionalization of power to form Governments, national.

Anderson: this is the historical experience of the revolution in South America. But that significant changes in decades, era of military dictatorships in South America came to an end, this change is very important.

Yan Wang: of course there are exceptions. Such as 1960 's radical left-wing movements in Europe, the International Communist movement at that time to a low ebb, student movement from 68 to 70 have become increasingly radicalized there Italy the Red Brigades, Germany Red Army faction, and Japan Red Army. The militant group expressing two claims: against domestic capitalism on the one hand the Government, protesting American imperialism occupied on the other hand, attack the base, attacked a NATO military personnel. They were anti-capitalist and nationalist sentiment; Government covering both domestic capitalism and fight for national liberation of the imperialist occupation. This is with the exception of national sport, and the distance from start to finish, both advocates of internationalism, and independence. But he finally ended in tragedy.

Anderson: Yes. Some of the things you don't want to remember, such as "World War II" after what Western countries have done what. They will major war criminals to justice, but also using other notorious far-right criminals, to participate in the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries of "cold war". Everyone knew they worked as Hitler's Army official or financial officials, impunity, entering the high-powered NATO government agencies. In Japan, too, United States first executed several high-ranking war criminals, and then go back some 30 far-right, the Suppression of Japan left-wing forces. So, the left-wing movement is not abstract to oppose United States colonialism and see who are the horrific atrocities committed during the war, conscience on how to get by, this anxiety in the West, the Suppression of United States policy. In the "second world war" period, how much Japan leftists were killed, must not let history repeat itself.

(B)

Yan Wang: the China visit, chat a few times, you talked about Taiwan and Asian films. A friend asked: Anderson Professor of film was so loved, and nationalism studies what relationship?

Anderson: I'm more concerned with purely out of interest, but never thought about what to write about nationalism in film history. Around 1920, the film began to become more and more important, when nationalist fervor in Western and other countries, is also a film as the ascendant.

To me, it was just like the movie, but United States film is so bad. Some very good directors in Europe, but not a lot, rare for early Chinese films, Japan movies have been very exciting. When I was in College, as soon as you hear the show Japan movies, first time to run over to look at it.

From Japan in the movie, I saw a few works. United States film techniques are usually linear narrative suspense, and the increasingly rapid pace. Japan director Ozu Yasujiro's work, talk, slow, show a lot of detail, but suspense doesn't mean much.

Yan Wang: in the imagined community, can know that your preference for novels and stories, often referencing Auerbach (Erich Auerbach) literary theorists, such as point of view. Methodologically, it is hard to just sum up your research in anthropology or sociology. I special attention, is your deep literary background, how to combine literature and nationalism studies?

Anderson: from the age of four, my mother asked me to learn the piano, but later abandoned. Because of her preference for music, I was exposed to early romantic music, with a strong national character. At that time, many countries, including the United Kingdom give students an understanding of dance very early I know Norway folk songs, listen to the melody we know which one is Greece and the Czech Republic, Germanic, and Hungary or Russia the composer's works, music nation.

Is completely different in the world of the novel, no country can come out on top. You could say that in 19th century Russia literary classics, Germany, and France, and Italy literature also as good. From the point of view of world history, in addition to Russia, China's geographical isolation, a vast, relatively independent, the West is not a whole, European countries in century disputes continued, expedition slaughtered each other. Mutual hostility and frequent literary translation has never stopped. European countries have their own native language, but does not belong to any one country, because the foundations of the ancient language is common in various languages of Europe. Father died, the children before separation of the disputed.

Until the age of 21, my interest in literature. University watched many foreign films, thought on literature as an undergraduate on the top. Undergraduate examinations, to figure what makes research easier.

Yan Wang: articles by logical and Chinese students, too.

Anderson: literature never go away, I've been back many poems, some of which are still remembered. Then went to the United States, where there are no people reading novels, watching Japan movie. At this time, new academic interest surfaced, found himself interested in East Asian regional politics, just go. You look at me is a hybrid education. Students often laugh at me watching foreign films, also need to be translated, and spend the effort is not worth, had nothing to do with political science, but I enjoy it. United States cultural ethnic diversity has been curious, particularly in the coasts of large cities. Different period, United States West Coast into the large Asian immigrant I Taiwan immigrants interested in gradually, later visited Taiwan. Chiang Kai-shek was still alive at that time can see that public dissatisfaction with the administration.

(C)

Yan Wang: can you say is exactly what literary experience makes you interested in nationalism?

Anderson: it's hard to say, but I do think their ideological roots in the study of nationalism. I used to joke: the imagined community is not written by me, is someone else's work, of course, people do not believe.

One thing is for sure, my basic theory is Marx's point of view, although Marx did not directly involved in nationalism. I insisted that capitalism is a parody of a nationalism, that there is nothing to do water meters. Don't know why Marx's studying ethnic issues.

Then someone gave me a book of Auerbach's theory of imitation, I was immediately captivated. This book spans more than 3,000 years, ingredients are literary texts, it got me thinking about the time associated with the era of literature is how to show time and the times. If you read the first chapter of the imitation, will find a lot of events by the time to hook up, not necessarily horizontal connections with each other. Time flat high above the gap between noble and humble civilians, in the literature showing the overall significance.

If there is no such "simultaneous" (simultaneity), you cannot imagine 50 million from an unknown stranger, gets you the same daily routine, also to have breakfast or go to work. In a big time frame, two centuries apart who are thinking about the same problem: revolution for the liberation of mankind. I realize that the crux of the problem is the time I have been brooding it is time, the imitation of an exquisite interpretation. Find clues, while ignoring the geography dimension, when later reprints of the imagined community, I added two more chapters on geography. At a tense summer of various materials makes me more and more clear, and one described occurs at different spatial and temporal things, seemingly simple, how can I do it? When you write, you also think readers about the relationship between two strangers figures well known, how so? Time is marching in succession in one direction.

Yan Wang: around the time of the imagined community, discuss the origins of nationalism. Readers have asked, you refer to Benjamin's "Messiah" has any meaning. In fact, you also invoked the Auerbach of the imitation of the chapter point, that is, the biblical story in the context of the Messiah, son of Abraham's sacrifice, time without reference to the natural time of narration, but ethical, religious significance. Then you turn to the modern novel, compares the relationship of narrative and the time of the old testament. ...

Anderson: actually these are the Auerbach's point of view.

Yan Wang: Yes, but you did mention in his Messiah. I read Walter Benjamin's the storyteller left the impression he and Lukacs's theory of the novel time for the structural elements of the novel, ultimately is a reflection on the meaning of life. Novel gives omniscient narration, portrayal of the protagonist's career as a whole meaning. He mentions Flaubert of the emotional education of the end of the man from hope to disillusion, revealing the meaning is just the residue in the chalice of life, the novel lost tradition of the story features.

CA: Benjamin says, storytellers can teach to help others, and writing a novel to other persons without any education, or do anything they write too beautiful! So when the first edition of the imagined community, I think well what to write in the introduction, the editor said: write the biggest influence on you people. This easy, not Marx, Auerbach and Walter Benjamin, it is impossible to complete this work. The three Germans are my heroes, I also learned a lot from other countries, but cannot be likened to the three Germans.

Yan Wang: when they write the ghost, your approach is not entirely positive. Although the fieldwork in Southeast Asia is also mentioned in the book, but writing and anthropology after all not the same. By providing some facts seem to, you give a different point of view, so that the reader can explain ideas.

Anderson: If you're a serious anthropologist, first to design research projects, and field research, and knowledge of the local language and other preparatory work. Someone told me from the beginning: good anthropologists need to open your eyes, listening, keen observation details. Part I did observe in the country, but mainly in the cities. Listen to what people say, and why, and to whom. I am a amateur novice, serious sociologist isn't letting the data speak. But I just wanted to write something even more interesting.

Yan Wang: in writing this book, do you mind Roland Barthes? I think with him on account of the mythological gods.

Anderson: Yes. I really like this book, like Foucault's work, is the world's most outstanding works. I don't remember when reading of the mythology, like in the 60 's, anyway, still very young. Written in very beautiful and very humorous. Bart thinks, look at the cultural phenomenon of to master the local language, which is the study of a new beginning, even if you spend a lot of time, hard is worth, then observe, listen. While the United States the biggest failure is enough attention to foreign language education, only to learn something practical oral, cosmetic, how to call a taxi to go to the post office and refuse to work in-depth documentation. Culture in literature, history and culture for a long time to understand a place, you must master the language. Also one or two universities in Southeast Asian literature across the United States, now United States the things useful to students only, this is a very big mistake.

(D)

Yan Wang: in the preamble of the ghost, you mentioned 60 Indonesian President Sukarno had a speech to the University. When you are young, to interpret a senior European diplomat. Sukarno stride of talk big time, said Hitler was Germany a national hero, and very wise, rather than the executioners of the Holocaust. European diplomats believe your translation, verified for the speech made by the President of Indonesia, ilovejun rage, left. Read this passage, vibrations, while troubled, you can expand your mind?

Anderson: Sukarno, considers himself a leftist, but experienced a history of the rise and fall of Hitler, you can't help but ask why, but I don't know the answer. This is the experience of my youth. When I was young, my aunt gave me a single telescope. Looking at the moon through a telescope is so big, but turned to watch, Moon is so small. A small lens, how could the size of change so dramatically? Listening to the address by the President of Indonesia, I seem to return to childhood. Sukarno may look at European history, also upside down telescope, everything seems so far away, insignificant. If he can back the telescope, is commendable. In history class, history teacher of ancient and medieval religious wars, endless conquest, massacres, torture, cruelty and darkness, but everything is so distant, irrelevant. No matter how you feel, is knowledge for teachers. So, Nazi Sukarno may seem far away, but he just compare the atrocities committed by the Japanese in Indonesia, will also do so easily? Don't forget, two tragedies occurred almost at the same time. In fact, his speech is also careless, knee-jerk, not mean bizarre. Or, for example, someone tells you, Genghis Khan is the greatest monarch in the world, such a vast Empire, we commemorate him. And you say his hands stained with the blood of millions of people ... ... Well, you think about which dynasties in Chinese history's bloodiest?

Yan Wang: in Chinese history, it is generally considered the first emperor of the most brutal, and burying scholars alive is the first count. In the historical memory of the Chinese people, the brutality is not only the number of slaughtered, burned by more classic, reader's tragedy were buried alive. Speaking of Genghis Khan, views diverge, campaign he was accused of killing, also praised his outstanding achievements, brought unprecedented glory to China, frontier westward expansion to Europe. The funny thing is, some say he was Mongolia's conqueror, not the pride of the Chinese civilization. Envious of Genghis Khan's exploits on the one hand, on the other hand regret the vast Empire is not vested in the mainstream of Chinese civilization.

When it comes to ethnic issues, I joined United States Asian Studies Conference, some scholars to submit papers, study the history of Han Chinese persecution in the late Qing dynasty Manchu, alluding to China's minority policy. I think the United States scholars in Chinese history from the inverted telescope. Chinese people's collective memory, the Manchus ruled China prior to 1911, Han Chinese at all levels of political, economic and social discrimination, resulting in late Qing dynasty "expel Manchus" of national revolution. United States academic pulls out of the early persecution of full scores, historical perversion of logic, this statement and the historical memory of "parallax" (parallax vision), you can't go from Chinese culture-dominated status quo, back-history of a century ago, ignoring the historical context.

Anderson: but the irony is, I hear that language in danger of extinction. A century past, the Manchu language and culture will soon disappear? Do you know of other minorities, how do they feel?

Yan Wang: This exposes the duality of nationalism, it has devastating potential on the one hand, on the other hand, to protect vulnerable nationalism.

CA: just like the protection of endangered pandas, conducive to the continuation of their species. But every time I see pathetic Panda, I felt nauseous.

Yan Wang: why you repeatedly stressed the nationalist ideology, there is no universal kernel. When it comes to issues of nationalism, should be put into a specific context. When a nation's mood when expanded to the aggressive, we need to be vigilant. When a people become vulnerable, and need a perspective on their national sentiment. Is that right?

Anderson: I do see it that way. There are three different types of nation States, the first is a group of national 90%, such as Han is the mainstream of China, most of the matters decided by the mainstream, is the common language of Chinese ethnic minorities can keep their own language and culture, but national education in Chinese culture.

The second type on top, there are two major forces for a nation nearly equal populations, often divided, war-ridden. Sri Lanka, plagued by disputes between several major ethnic groups in that country.

Third countries like Indonesia, was lucky to have 12 relatively large populations, there is no absolute mainstream, even if a large ethnic population (Java), the influence is not the biggest. No matter who rules this country, must federate with other ethnic groups. Indonesia's official language, but does not belong to any group, and almost all of them would say. This situation in India could not imagine, India's minority, and there is no mainstream, year round to establish official language debate. These three types of outlines the tension between peoples and countries.

(E)

Yan Wang: your nationalism on discrete (Diaspora nationalism) study is very interesting. Such as the national sentiment is clearly different from the local overseas Chinese. If this can be called the "long-distance nationalism" (long-distance nationalism)?

Anderson: I think there are two major types. A best example of this is Italy, and 19th century domestic war many Italy people from their homes near the soil, fled to the United States, and Argentina and other countries, to save his skin. These people have no Government, always hoped that once the domestic situation improves, always go back to in the future. Not only Italy, and there are Jews fleeing the Holocaust, early Chinese in North America, South Island, are of this type, from the world's "Central" zone flow "edge".

Another type, on the other hand, today's situation is from the outside to "the center of the world", tend to be middle-class phenomenon. Now people go to the United States, for the better education of their children, they have more leisure time. They won't be attached to their country, maybe every now and then return home to visit relatives and friends, but certainly in the United States has roots. Their problem is that many people have a sense of guilt. This differs from the immigrants of the 19th century, there was no guilt, because they want to return home. Immigrants do not have the desire, in the United States lives a comfortable, high income, children's education well, compared to the Mainland and to improve the quality of life, heart of guilt brings a special kind of nationalism.

Yan Wang: indeed, the entanglements of a sense of identity. But as far as I observe, new immigrants from China is unlikely to be guilty. They often travel in China, visiting relatives and friends, often intentionally show and local awareness of the distinction between friends and relatives, because of exposure to the Western culture and a sense of superiority.

CA: really come to this? They will show off? Instead of expressing regret it?

Yan Wang: I think it is showing off. Because living in an international environment, we will find that they have a broader international perspective, psychologically superior to the domestic narrow horizons.

CA: so friends will say: go back to your United States go!

Yan Wang: not, opposite hospitality. Road to ask to go abroad at the dinner table, how to visa, rich in the United States, the quest for relations in the United States. However, Chinese immigrants to return to United States Hou, often put on another face. At the party, they will literally dressed Chinese, wearing traditional Chinese cheongsam, comb hair, Chinese identity, and then say to the Americans: don't you know China, China has a splendid great civilizations, ignorance, there are too many prejudices in the West. This is the migration of two masks.

Anderson: they are on both sides of China and hold all the ACEs.

Yan Wang: in the United States may not be able to take advantage, but at least the pursuit of special identity. Don't treat me like other new immigrants, rich Confucian civilization is my backing.

Anderson: since your country so well, why don't you go back?

Yan Wang: I hear Americans talk: your country so beautiful, reporting this to do? Back home! But not in person, don't forget to add "hate crimes" (hate crime), was too offensive.

Anderson: I want to offend them. You say these people are Fujianese Chinatown, haha!

Yan Wang: on the contrary, lived in Chinatown's older generation of Fujian and Guangdong immigrants, but not to boast. Like the old Chinatown in New York (Canal St), descendants of Chinese labour is mostly the older generation, is very plain. After the 1980 new immigrants, many live in flushing, Queens (Flushing), the so-called new Chinatown, or scattered everywhere. They are more highly educated, both on behalf of the Chinese culture and the role of political persecution, and so the most tangled identity.

Anderson: in fact, this situation also exists in other immigrants, I have a Thailand friends said: some people seem very rich cultural heritage, the most uneducated.

(Edging, Zhang Feifei assisted finishing recording release)